Kieran Findlay

Hello and welcome to the Scottish Housing News Podcast with me, Kieran Finlay and Jimmy Black. For this episode, we’re diving into one of the most persistent and pressing issues facing tenants and landlords alike: Damp, mould and tenant health. At the time of recording, the Housing Bill is progressing through Holyrood with amendments to introduce Awaab’s Law, a legislative move that will require landlords to fix health hazards like damp and mould within strict timeframes. But are landlords ready for this shift?

Jimmy Black

So joining us are Kerry Brown, co-founder and director of Alator Data Services, and Patrick McRedmond, the company’s technical product support manager.

With backgrounds in housing, compliance and environmental monitoring, they bring a unique perspective to this field and raise an important question. If the problem is now clearly the landlord’s to solve, is it still possible and appropriate to talk about tenant behaviour?

Kieran Findlay

So let’s get into it. Thanks guys for coming on to the podcast. As you understand it Kerry, what are the biggest changes that social landlords should be aware of with the introduction of Awaab’s Law?

Kerry Brown

So obviously Awaab’s Law at the moment is coming in in October but it’s down in England and the biggest thing will be the response times to damping mode. So it will be 14 days to investigate a damping mode concern or a complaint and then seven days to actually from that investigation to then carry out the repair work and then probably the strictest one of all is the 24 hours if it’s deemed to be an emergency hazard.

Paddy and I today were sitting discussing emergency hazards and what that actually means. So I think for housing associations for me this is going to be something that they’re going to have to consider and what their response to that is going to be, because there could be a lot of ambiguity on that you know and there’s not actually been any kind of clear definition on what an emergency hazard is. So I think at the moment they’re saying it’s if there’s an extreme case of damp and mould, or if there is some kind of vulnerability or a health issue which could potentially lead to needing medical attention.

Kieran Findlay

Like a pre-existing health issue in someone’s household, yeah.

Kerry Brown

So that’s the guidance that we’ve got at the moment, but if you think of it from a housing association’s point of view, that can be applied in lots of different ways.

So how is a housing association going to determine if it could potentially lead to medical attention?

Kieran Findlay

Yeah, do they have data records on the health conditions of the tenants and so on?

Kerry Brown

Yeah. So I think that could be open to quite a lot of interpretation. And again, potentially leading to housing associations each taking a different approach, which is what we don’t necessarily like to see. We would like to see a more kind of standard approach to that so that regardless of where you’re living, you’re still getting the same treatment.

Jimmy Black

What’s the regulator saying about this then? Surely there must be some sort of guidance there.

Kerry Brown

Hopefully prior to it being rolled out Jimmy as I say that’s always what happens when legislation’s laid. Hopefully there’ll be more clarification and definitions on what that’s actually going to mean in principle.

Jimmy Black

I did see something about the regulator waiting to see what comes up in the first year and then maybe providing some sort of guidance then.

Kieran Findlay

It does seem to me that there’s a large onus on the tenant themselves finding this, locating it and then reporting it.

Kerry Brown

And this is the thing, how much are the tenants going to be aware that they need to specify that actually when I make a damp and mould complaint I also have to then let my landlord know actually I have a health condition this could potentially be impacting on my health for that then to be taken seriously and dealt with within the 24 hour timeframe.

Is there going to be an education piece to tenants to let them know that? Are the housing associations going to have screening questions that when someone phones up with a damp and mould complaint that they need to then ask these questions of the tenants to be able to direct the support properly?

Kieran Findlay

I suppose Patrick, one concern is that this fix the solution fix the problem, there’s different levels to what’s deemed a solution and when the problem is deemed to be fixed especially if you’re giving people strict timeframes, could there be shortcuts taken and so on?

Patrick McRedmond

Yeah well this is actually something that I think I’ve been saying for a long time so there’s a lot of recent conversations before this was amended was opposed with Scottish housing associations and the conversation always was Awaab clause coming, you need to be ready you’ve already seen the warning of what happened in England this is coming for you and now the conversation is actually shifting a good bit with English housing associations saying by the way ARC requirements are coming imposing a solution in a rapid time frame is a great goal to have and it’s a very very, I like that idea, it’s a good approach to take but it’s only part of the approach.

If you’re doing it quickly but not doing it right it’s like the classic triangle when you’re buying something good, cheap or fast pick two, well the ARC requirements say you need all three and if you’re saying well fast is one of the ones I want to pick the question is, is it going to be cheap or is it going to be quick or is it going to be cheap or is it going to be good and I don’t think that’s a conversation anyone wants to have around which of those two you pick when it’s someone’s health and damp and mould.

The health effects of damp and mould are really well understood and I think it’s not something you can afford to cut that corner on so getting it right first time and getting it right faster are both two things but which one takes priority is going to be a resource issue for housing associations.

Jimmy Black

Well we’re talking about the health consequences being well known there was a baby died recently wasn’t there which was a pretty upsetting case and loads of other stories and yet it still happens what was your reaction to seeing that guy?

Kerry Brown

I was honestly furious to think, upset but really angry that all the lessons that we should have learned from Ishaq’s death and I think as an industry we really hope we had learned those lessons and then to wake up in the morning and to see that about Akram Mohammed, a 50 week old baby, it is just so upsetting that to think five years later that we’re still seeing these headlines, these problems and families still being devastated by their homes that they’re living in and I think with that one it really hit home as well just like you were saying there Kieran because the landlord had obviously responded they did retrofit work and what they’re actually thinking is the retrofit work actually made the situation worse.

So I don’t know if you knew so it was basically I think they thought the problem was being caused by a leaky window so what they came in and they’ve basically I obviously can’t comment fully but they’ve came in and basically sealed the window, which has basically made the situation worse.

Kieran Findlay

So they’ve trapped the bad air inside.

Kerry Brown

Yeah and that’s one thing that we’re so passionate about that we’re really really trying to advocate at the moment is to say that look if you’re going to do these solutions you have to measure the success. It’s not okay just to go in and say well actually I’m going to take an educated guess this is what the problem is, oh yeah well that’s okay, we’ve done that, we’ve satisfied the requirement to respond within 7 days, we’ve satisfied Awaab’s law but you’ve not actually measured the success of what you’ve done.

Kieran Findlay

So let’s talk about then, what is your solution? What is it that Alator provides?

Patrick McRedmond

So one of the solutions we have is what we call the Trackair solution, it’s a mobile monitoring kit that we can use to understand the behaviour of the property over time rather than a single measurement at one point in the property to say this is what we’re seeing on this particular day at this particular instance, it’s an ongoing continuous monitor. But one thing it does is it monitors ventilation rates, external temperature and can look at the interplay between those two.

So one thing that’s really really interesting if you look at larger data sets that we try to break through with our solution is if you look at a D rated property or a C rated property from an EPC point of view if you upgrade that to a B rated property you actually increase the risk of damp and mould so one thing that this solution does is it looks at what’s causing the damp and mould and is it a ventilation issue, is it a thermal issue and really get down to the root cause and make sure that the solution you’re applying fits the application.

Jimmy Black

Ok but you need to explain that, how does going to a B-rated property make it worse?

Patrick McRedmond

Ok so that’s a really good point and I’m glad you pulled me up on that. When you’re trying to remove poor quality air from a property if you’ve been in a space for a large amount of time and you haven’t had a large amount of throughput of that room you’re in you’re trapping in moisture, you’re also trapping in heat homes can be really really well ventilated and have a good air quality from that perspective but they’re going to lose all their heat. If you’re letting out moisture, letting out CO2, letting out the things that cause mould to build up you’re also letting out heat, you can’t have both and that’s the problem.

So if you’re trapping in all the heat making the house nice and warm, really efficient to run you’re trapping in all the horrible stuff that you want to get rid of as well like carbon dioxide and high levels of humidity. It’s a bit of an overlap there that you can’t have both. The unfortunate reality and this is one of the reasons mould is such a persistent issue is the conditions that humans like to live at in a comfortable environment mould does as well and you can’t have both where it’s, let’s get rid of all the mould make it not a hospitable environment for mould, people don’t generally want to live in those conditions just as much.

Everyone will experience it differently one thing I have is whenever I go away to a warmer climate I feel really chesty because a less humid environment doesn’t suit me and everyone will feel that differently but if you’re trying to clear out the mould, it’s a more difficult property to maintain from a tenant’s perspective. And that’s one of the main causes of frustration among tenants.

Jimmy Black

Okay, and we’re building houses to be airtight now and the Passivhaus Standard is all about airtightness you were talking about taping up a window that’s a pretty crude version of what we’re trying to achieve by having airtightness, is this a mistake?

Patrick McRedmond

I don’t necessarily think it’s a mistake but I think, again, it comes with an education piece that’s not just recommended, it’s mandatory for tenants one thing the Passive House Standard recommends is an air change rate and I’ll just quickly explain what that is an air change rate, or an ACH is how much volume of that room changes out in every hour. So an ACH is how much of the room has been replaced by fresh air. The Passivhaus Standard says a minimum of 0.3 so a third of all the air in that room is replaced every hour that’s a reasonably high throughput and is a nice balance.

Whether that’s a mistake or not, I don’t think it’s a mistake it’s definitely moving in the right direction but that movement can’t be leaving people behind and understanding how their properties behave and work.

Kerry Brown

But what I’d like to see is the testing. Testing in an actual home can these people say, yeah, everybody lives in their home differently that’s the problem so even if they have tested it and they say, yep, we’ve tested X amount of homes and this absolutely works and there’s no risk of damp and mould from putting the solution into this home but every home is different every home is going to react differently because people are using their home in different ways.

So I think the only solution to that is to, like I said to you, what I’d love to see is that factored into the cost of a new build is a damp and mould monitoring solution and even go further, for governments, for their funding to actually mandate that we have to put these damp and mould monitoring solutions into the property so right from the outset we’re able to see if we’re going to put new innovations in that they’re actually doing the purpose that they’re expected to do.

Kieran Findlay

So it remains to be seen if this Passivhaus standard or the Scottish equivalent standard comes into play in Scotland, but have you guys responded to that consultation? Are you guys in conversation with the government? Are you guys in conversation with the Passivhaus Trust?

Patrick McRedmond

I’ve had some conversations with them very early on but it’s a very slow moving entity it’s a very slow moving discussion. One conversation I’m having is housing associations struggling to understand it and how they monitor it differently. I have housing organisations saying we need to do blower door tests on these properties and then it gets a green light, a tick the box has been ticked, the tenant moves in and then they get a complaint and I think well that’s because that standard is built maybe not with the use case in mind in certain instances and this comes back to tenants not being brought along that journey.

So it’s more of a conversation I think needs to be had including housing providers and tenants because again if they’re getting left behind the standard’s not going to work.

Jimmy Black

So we’ve got a situation where we’re monitoring property we’re also testing the way that people live, is this quite intrusive? How do you actually do this? Presumably, you’re not talking about cameras. What are you talking about then? Tell us about the kit, the nuts and bolts.

Patrick McRedmond

So the main idea of the kit is there’s a number of small sensors think of something like a small little plug socket in size and colour, really unobtrusive it sticks on a wall and it takes readings regularly for CO2, carbon dioxide, temperature and humidity those readings are then sent to a gateway that is either in the property or nearby and that’s then sent to a cloud platform that handles the data. From a tenant’s point of view they don’t need to really deal with it on a daily basis it’s not like a smoke alarm or a fire alarm that’ll go off if there’s an issue, it doesn’t record anything specific about the property so there’s no GDPR issue with tenants worried about their data and the idea is that once you install it, the housing qssociation the tenant do not have to worry about the monitor whatsoever they just worry about the data that they get from it.

So in an ideal world an IoT instal for a tenant is someone knocks on the door who’s been explained what’s going to happen they talk to the tenant, include them in the process the sensors get installed and then they never really hear from it until there’s a problem or the data detects there will be a problem. The idea is that it’s as low impact as possible.

Kerry Brown

But I think that what we really advocate is is that tenant engagement part, Jimmy is including the tenants on that journey. So it’s not about just turning up and saying oh yeah, the landlord’s decided that you’re going to have these monitors installed and there’s no education piece on that. So it’s really about what we find is the best outcomes that you can get is when the tenant’s involved in the process. It’s right from the start that we’re here to help you this data is going to prove what you’ve been thinking or if it’s not going to prove we’re actually going to be able to show you what’s actually been going on in the property and why it’s been happening.

So when you can get the tenants on board that way and actually present the data to them and sit down and explain it to them, that’s when you get the best outcomes especially if it comes down to I hate that phrase, tenant led behaviour, but if it’s something like ventilation where it is the issue the tenant is much more likely to implement an action what you’re suggesting if they’ve been involved right from the start and they’ve been included and they’ve been listened to so that’s why we think it’s so important.

Jimmy Black

Just to come back on that there’s a very common thing where people get positive input ventilation put into their houses because that will cure that will do the change of air that you were talking about but the tenants turn it off because they feel that it’s drafty or it’s using a lot of power and that’s clearly a mad thing to do but nonetheless you can’t argue with their perception.

Kerry Brown

Exactly

Patrick McRedmond

And I think that’s a really big part of it one of the conversations you have with housing associations when you’re discussing implementing these large scale solutions which I had a conversation the other day about a housing association of well this is how many houses we want to do in the next time period what if a tenant doesn’t want that we’ll just find someone else on the list and I said no no what you need to do is explain that to the tenant and they said well some tenants won’t want it and I said well in my experience one of the roll outs I did in a previous project there was about 600 homes and I had three tenants from that 600 list refuse I refuse that the housing association wouldn’t believe that number at the time but when you explain the approach with them that’s how you bring tenants on board.

I have a really funny anecdote about it of ringing up a tenant to say I’m going to come and install these sensors you would have got a letter if you didn’t I can talk you through it now and she says under no circumstance are you installing sensors in my home goodbye. It’s okay no worries the housing association sent her a letter and she then called me back and said so tell me how these sensors are going to fix this problem for me and I remember when I actually got to that property she wouldn’t let me leave until I installed another sensor in her son’s bedroom so well that room matters as well. And I was looking at it well from the data that room is actually a very low risk but if you want one in there I’ll put one in there that kind of conversation when then a ventilation plan was proposed for that tenant she had no problem listening because she was brought along the whole journey.

So that’s kind of the big part of it is from day one it has to be a tenant led instal.

Kieran Findlay

And that’s one of the main reasons that I wanted to do this this episode really is because there’s quite understandably been a shift away from for want of a better phrase blaming tenants and the government guidance and the legal developments have emphasised the landlord’s responsibility for this even if the tenant’s lifestyle choices contribute to the problem so is it fair to say that you want to bring tenant behaviour back into that conversation.

Kerry Brown

100% yeah, it’s got to be.

Patrick McRedmond

What we’re trying to do is really separate blame from cause. We can’t blame tenants, there’s just no way that’s a fair or right thing to do but if a tenant is causing an issue and you’ve brought them on that journey they’re going to want to understand that.

Kieran Findlay

Give me some real-life examples of changes that you’ve introduced in a tenant’s daily lifestyle that have brought about improvements.

Patrick McRedmond

yeah that’s a really good one so one instal we did at a property actually very close to us here at a housing association you’re probably familiar with they had a tenant make a complaint related to condensation damp and mould they investigated they said oh yeah there’s an issue here and they determined it’s a tenant-led issue they improved ventilation in the property they installed additional extraction they wet walled the bathroom. Grand, ticked off it’s done.

We responded quickly but then lo and behold three months later mould reoccurred so we installed some sensors one thing we were able to determine was use case between two bedrooms was identical or sorry yeah occupancy was identical but use case was different. And there was a case of during the evening there was a teenager in a bedroom was closing his bedroom door and then spending three or four hours in the room before going to bed and obviously a teenager waking up late, spending the guts of 12 hours in that room with no ventilation in that room whatsoever.

Now the tenant was concerned about a safety issue couldn’t open the windows. Absolutely fine, we’re not going to ask you to open the windows. The solution we proposed was actually to open the door slightly and as little as two inches we saw a massive drop in humidity in that room overnight. The breakthrough moment for us when the tenant obviously said well if you look at the CO2 levels in that room. The CO2 levels in the room where you know it’s a younger child’s bedroom that doesn’t mind having the door open and in fact it’s probably annoying mum and dad coming into their room at two o’clock in the morning. You know the CO2 levels were less than 1500 consistently where the other bedroom you’re seeing five to six thousand parts per million overnight which to put context on is far too high extremely unsafe and extremely high levels.

If you had five thousand parts per million CO2 in an oil refinery you’d be evacuating that room because it’s unsafe yet it was fine for this child’s bedroom as soon as I explained this to the tenant okay right what do I need to do that change was made of opening the door one or two inches overnight and within a week the humidity level had dropped by 8.6% and knocked it from a moderate risk to a low risk and mould didn’t reoccur.

So that’s a really subtle change using the data and the way the tenant understands that you know potentially was misdiagnosed by the Housing Association through no fault of their own at the start and maybe they didn’t need to add that additional extraction they just needed to have a conversation with the tenant that was really really founded in data.

Jimmy Black

That’s a transition that you’ve made there from just simply gathering data through the sensors and analysing it and actually being part of the solution and giving the tenants advice. Now is that what they pay you to do or is that just extra that you’re adding on if you like?

Kerry Brown

That’s the extra so that’s not actually, well our understanding Jimmy is that’s not part of other solutions. So a lot of the other providers, what they’ll do is they just provide the data and there’s actually no tenant contact whatsoever. We just feel that normally by the time you get to kind of dampen all complaints there is a bit of animosity between tenant landlord and we feel by being seen as more like an independent third party person that we can bring that tenant on board better and that’s not always the case because we’ve actually worked on another one at the moment where we’ve been speaking to the landlord and said look would you like us to engage with the tenant and the landlord had actually said look I’ve got a really good relationship with this tenant let me handle this.

So it’s not in every case but in a lot of cases the tenant sees us as being impartial, fair you know what I mean so when we’re actually doing that and we’re obviously suggesting the ventilation plan sometimes it’s accepted a bit more rather than the landlord going back where they’ve probably had this conversation time and time again especially ventilation open your windows oh the tenant’s not opening their window you know so by actually having a third party and then as I say because we’ve brought them on that journey and we’ve said we’re here to help you when we do go back to them with the data and with the suggestions and how they can improve it they’re more likely to take it on board.

Kieran Findlay

Is that where your background in social housing and tenant welfare comes in?

Kerry Brown

Yeah so that’s like my big passion and I think this has been like the thing because obviously when we started this business we were doing emissions on you know factories and power plants and things and calibrations so it wasn’t really then we obviously brought in this product and it’s going back to tenant welfare and it’s just my passion project. So being able to be back out working with tenants assisting with tenants you know that was the huge thing that I just missed and it’s been on the front line so yeah it’s been great.

Jimmy Black

Kerry, do you ever tell tenants to put lids on pans or you know open their windows or suggest that they get false walls or any of that stuff that housing officers have said over the years?

Kerry Brown

Nothing like that. So potentially we would say open windows but again because as I say a lot of the time I would say it’s tenant behaviour you know if a tenant wants to dry their clothing on the radiator let them dry their clothing on the radiator it’s their home they can use the home as they wish but what we’ve got to do is educate them and say well if you are going to do that look you’re going to get a moisture build up so if you’re doing that at the same time look if you can you know open the door let the air flow through the property or try and open a window at the same time. So again it’s just a bit educating rather than saying you can’t do this.

Jimmy Black

Open your windows and turn the heating up, that’s another thing.

Kerry Brown

No and I think though as well it’s like that it’s listening. So if someone says to you look I’m in a ground floor flat I’m in an unsafe area I’m not going to open my window it’s just not going to happen or I’m paying an absolute fortune for my you know to heat my home the last thing I’m going to do in Scotland is open my window and let all that escape. And that’s why you know the data that we get from the monitors is only part of the data and is only part of the solution just as important as the data that we get from the tenants on how they’re using the homes and what they’re willing to do to improve the situation. So that’s just as important and we’ve got to take two of them together to get the best outcomes

And that’s where in that solution it was just right okay well we can’t open the windows so what can we do? And as I say that one it did work where we can open the door even just two inches that was enough to improve the air flow you know in that property. That might not always work but then we need to go back to the drawing board and start again you know and work together and say well you know what solution can we find. And at least with these monitors we’re continually monitoring to see what is working and what’s improving and what’s making a difference.

Jimmy Black

Can your sensors actually cope with a teenager’s socks?

Patrick McRedmond

No unfortunately not, that’s one issue that we do fall down on! But just on that point there, you said ‘have you ever asked tenants to open their windows?’ There are times, and this is where I think it’s really important to say we’re bringing tenants on this journey with us, a really good example of that actually I had a property recently I was looking at for a housing association and the tenant was saying she’s being told I’m told to open my windows repeatedly and looking at it you know the data was suggesting the tenant’s actually really struggling to keep this home reliably. And just what I’m trying to get at is this education of tenant engagement is a two-way street.

So I spoke to that tenant and I said I want you to open your windows for 10 minutes a day twice a day for an entire week and she said that’s not going to solve the mould problem and I said no it’s not. It’s not going to solve the problem, what it is going to do is give me a week’s worth of data where I can show a housing officer. That here’s a week where she’s left the windows closed and a week where she left them open and I can see a clear ventilation risk this week it’s 90% red this week it’s 90% green and the mould risk hasn’t changed I can then go back to the housing officer and say ventilation is not the source here this tenant is not going to deal with that.

Now that’s a very different conversation of asking a tenant to open her windows because you think she’s the problem. If I say to her I know you’re not I need some data to show the housing officer and she said so when he says to me open my windows next week and I can go I can show him that’s not going to work he’s not going to do it again. So that was one instance where it was bringing the tenant on the journey now at the end of that week she said can I please start closing and I said yes absolutely that’s a different way of using the data to not bring the tenant to the point where they need to be, but bring the housing association to the point where they need to be, and that’s kind of a very different way of approaching it I think.

Kieran Findlay

Let’s talk then about not just prevention which is obviously a massive part of it but the cure as well what involvement does Alator have in actually dealing with the problem of mould?

Patrick McRedmond

So we have a couple of strategic partnerships with Alator with companies who have different different solutions there are various different solutions for what needs to be done depending on the property so if it’s a ventilation issue, there’s certain companies we work with if it’s a thermal insulation issue, there’s other companies we work with. So we have a way to develop what we call a readiness score depending on the particular solution. That was actually a direct request to the housing association we’re doing a large project at the moment, where they said we’ve got these solutions and sometimes they’re coming back saying the solution is not working, is this a tenant issue in this case or has the insulation failed?

Kieran Findlay

So you’re able to measure…

Kerry Brown

…to validate that it’s working.

Patrick McRedmond

And a big part of that is we’ll work with a company who will have a particular solution. We’ll develop a particular set of algorithm or set of test criteria for their particular product and say in this case it’s applicable in this case it’s not and it’s kind of just working with a number of different providers to make sure that housing associations are only using someone when it’s really necessary and really right to do so.

Kerry Brown

So what we really like to try and do is do root cause analysis so our mission is that you put our solution in and it’s actually going to get to the root cause so that people can go and they can do the work to fix it but most importantly it’s not going to come back. So that’s what we do the reports that we produce will have an analysis to say this is what we think the problem is and it will guide obviously the housing association’s response to how they deal with that damp and mould.

Kieran Findlay

Yeah absolutely.

Jimmy Black

Is there a postcode lottery? Are housing providers across the country all up to speed? Are some people not really quite as good as others?

Patrick McRedmond

I think the postcode lottery is a very good way of putting it. There’s a range of different variables that make it difficult for housing associations to take a standard approach. I don’t think a one approach fits all. There’s very different sizes various different demographics of tenants, various different geographical layouts even, there’s no one solution that makes all but I mean you have some conversations with housing associations oh you’re looking at can you integrate a Microsoft Power BI I want to push API alerts to this my data team great let me talk to your data team and you have other conversations with housing associations and towards the end of the large project being useless they go oh how do we deal with this data thing?

Well you know there’s saints, cowboys and everywhere in between but no I don’t think there’s a standard approach.

Kerry Brown

And there’s some people Jimmy at the start of their journey with regards to damp and mould and there’s some teams who have rolled out have got really great systems in place and they are absolutely Awwab’s Law ready to react so yeah it’s complete postcode lottery I would say at the moment.

Patrick McRedmond

There’s some housing associations I think are going to absolutely perform amazingly with this and this guidance that they’re getting, these amendments to the Housing Bill I think are going to really throw some good shape on an already great system and there’s other housing associations that are going to get left behind if they don’t act very fast I think.

Jimmy Black

Once you’ve sorted the problem is it difficult to get your kit back out again or are you going to have to…?

Patrick McRedmond

Generally, not once the problem is sorted we generally if we can in some cases we’ll leave it in depending on what the actual structural issue is so if it’s a structural issue where we’ve suggested a particular insulation type or a particular ventilation plan in those cases we sometimes like to leave those in. If it’s a tenant cause issue where the tenant needs a bit of guidance and maybe some positive reinforcement we generally like to leave those in even longer. Getting the kit out isn’t very difficult to be totally honest with you and again being mobile with our kit is a big part of it if a housing association has a problem property they then solve that problem maybe they want to move that monitoring kit somewhere else that’s something we really encourage because it’s just a better return for themselves but in terms of moving it no it’s very simple to move.

Kerry Brown

So the kits are designed as you’ve seen today so the kits are designed to be installed with no technical skill, basically you’re sticking a couple of sensors on the wall and you’re plugging in a gateway and just as easy as it is to install obviously 30 seconds it’s as easy to uninstall and the whole point of that is as we’re saying once you’re satisfied that the problem’s resolved and you’ve decided that you no longer need to continue monitoring, you take the kit off and within 30 seconds pack it back in its Peli case and it’s ready to be going to the next property when you need it.

But obviously for us what we would like is we would always advocate keeping the kits in because what we would like to see that’s a reactive solution, you’re still reacting to a concern or complaint, what we would like to see is moving to the proactive monitoring solution, so that we’re actually preventing it before it happens and that can only happen if we’re continuously monitoring.

Kieran Findlay

Well, I think that’s my next question really is what’s next? We’re talking about differences in housing associations’ approach to what’s happening now and what’s going to happen in the next year or so, but where can it go? What can housing learn from other sectors and their measurements and compliance?

Kerry Brown

Paddy’s got a great example of what’s happening in commercial settings with regards to indoor air quality.

Patrick McRedmond

Yeah, so in commercial settings, I don’t know if you’ve ever been in very well-resourced offices, they generally have indoor air quality monitoring as a standard and there’s a certification they use for that called the WELL or the RESET standard, two different standards there, and it’s around how you monitor inside a property. So there’s a strict set of guidelines about proactive monitoring to ensure well-being for people inside those buildings. So it’s about keeping humidity levels at a good level, keeping temperatures at a comfortable level and keeping CO2 levels low, as low as possible.

There’s all sets of standards for guidelines about how those monitors should be installed, where they should be installed inside a property, where they should be installed inside a room, how often they should monitor, how that data is collected. Like one thing that the Well and Reset standards have is if you’re going into a building that’s Well and Reset certified, there’s a screen in the foyer or in a public area that’s accessible where it says, this is the air quality of the building, this is the health of the building.

I think that’s a really useful tool. If you’re walking in and you know it’s got the certification, you can just look at the screen and go, this is what it is. And it’s a great way of saying, well, we’re not just going to collect data, we’re going to make sure people actually use it. But what goes with that is you’re having really strict understandings and guidelines of how you place sensors.

One thing that really grinds my gears is you’ll see a lot of IAQ sensors installed on ceilings. I don’t want get too technical about it, but CO2 is a gap that’s heavier than air. If you’re spending eight hours in a bedroom overnight, you’re going to get lower CO2 levels at the top. You might then have two houses side by side. One is a CO2 level and a CO2 monitor installed in the ceiling, one on a wall. You might go, the one that has the CO2 level on the wall is much higher risk. In reality, you might not be comparing like for like.

Kieran Findlay

Not many people are like 12 feet or whatever it is at the top of the room.

Patrick McRedmond

Exactly. Yeah. So the breathing zone is what you want to be monitoring in. But the well and research standard have really good guidelines from this. And I think, because sometimes I struggle to see why that kind of standard has not been applied to housing. And I think it is one of resources in some regards.

Kerry Brown

I remember talking about these like, know, if the data that we’re collecting from these sensors is not correct because of sensor placement, for example, people’s lives are at risk. You know, that’s the seriousness of it. So it’s so important that there is a standard approach and even it goes to the technology that they can use isn’t it, there’s no standardisation here for what we’re installing in these people’s houses, where we’re the sensors, know how we’re collecting that data.

Patrick McRedmond

There’s one really important distinction, I won’t get too technical on it but there’s different types of CO2 sensors, one of is called an eCO2 sensor and that’s an equivalent that actually measures volatile organic carbons. It’s very good for some industrial applications, but it has really high interferences with things like deodorants, paints.

It’s not really suitable for a domestic setting where someone might spray some deodorant in a well-ventilated room and all of a sudden it looks like that room has terrible ventilation. Deodorants is a whole other can of worms I’m not going to get into for air quality, but some CO2 sensor providers aren’t transparent about what sensor technology they’re actually using, and that’s a huge problem if you don’t understand how you’re collecting the data.

Kerry Brown

And I don’t think housing associations would necessarily understand the intricacies of that, just as they’re being sold a CO2 sensor, but do they realise the implications of that?

Patrick McRedmond

I think that’s why something like the Well and Reset Standard should be brought in for housing where there’s a standardised approach and the technical expertise requirement isn’t just left for housing associations to pick up.

Kieran Findlay

So are they currently, is that a law in the commercial sector or is it a certification that people can apply for?

Patrick McRedmond

It’s a certification people can apply for, it’s not a law. I think it should be but I work in air quality so but it’s just a certification people can apply for.

Jimmy Black

It’s getting to the point where some tenants will have multiple sensors in their homes. I’m thinking of older people who maybe have community alarms, they’re monitoring falls, they’re monitoring how often they go to the toilet, how often they boil the kettle, how often they leave the house, maybe dementia monitoring. Is there any kind of interface between the kind of sensors that you install and those kind of things? Is there any way that you can actually work together and maybe even share data for mutual benefit?

Patrick McRedmond

Yeah, so a lot of IoT sensor providers have a very locked down system. You buy their sensors, their gateway, their hub, and that’s supposedly a one-stop shop. The system we’ve built is actually quite open. We actually had a requirement from a retrofit project manager to integrate energy data from some other sensors they had. And we said, yeah, we can integrate that with our system, no problem. And then it was a retrofit validation programme to see if we actually have really good carbon reduction based on the IAQ data, that’s a project we’re working on at the moment.

Yeah, we’re very open with who we’ll work with and who we’ll work with on data. The only thing we really say is it must be standard across the system and it to be based in good science, we’re very much a, we’re sensor agnostic in some ways.

Jimmy Black

Housing associations have to do this enormous document called the annual return on the charter. And I think it’s a bit of a pussie as they say in Dundee. It takes a long time to do it. Does this go into the annual return on the charter?

Kerry Brown

So obviously, they’ve just introduced three new descriptors that housing associations will now need to report on. They had to start collecting data from the 1st of April, and they’ll first report on that by the 31st of May 2026. These three descriptors are looking at how quickly they responded to a damp and mould complaint, current open cases of damp and mould, but most importantly and where we really, really think that Scotland is leading the way is they’re actually going to have to report on if they’ve had to go back to that damp and mold complaint within a 12-month period. And that for us is where Scotland are really recognising that actually it’s not just good enough to respond to it quickly.

What we’re actually monitoring and what we want to see is that you’ve solved the problem. That for us is actually surpassing Awaab’s Law because Awaab’s Law is very much focused on response times. Whereas for us, Scotland have absolutely nailed it by saying actually we’re going to monitor you on how often you have to go back to that property.

Jimmy Black

And you’re going to give housing associations, RSLs, the evidence that they need to convince the regulator that what they’re writing in their annual return is actually accurate. 

Kieran Findlay

Thanks to Patrick and Kerry for your time there. It’s been lovely chatting with you. For me and Jimmy Black, we’ll be back with another episode of the podcast in a few weeks.